Nick Gwynn Breathe Counselling

[00:00:00] Speaker A: That was Misty by Ray Stevens. That goes back a while. He was sort of like one of those artists that sort of did a little bit of comedy in his. When he wrote songs. Anyway, that was Ray Stevens. I have. And I've forgotten his name. I know I haven't. [00:00:20] Speaker B: How could you? [00:00:21] Speaker A: How could I. I've got Nick in here in the studio. He's popped in. Okay, so what does Nick do? [00:00:29] Speaker B: Nick, yes. So, yeah, Nick. Nick and Nick. Nick Gwyn is my name. Okay. What do I do? As in what do I do for a job? Or what do I do in my spare time? [00:00:40] Speaker A: Or let's start off with a job and then we go into your spare time. Yep. [00:00:44] Speaker B: Great. So at the moment, I direct and run Breathe Counseling. [00:00:51] Speaker A: What? Go on. [00:00:53] Speaker B: Yep. Breathe Counseling. So I've done. I've been doing that for the last, I think, ten and a half years. And that is, yeah, directing a counselling and psychology service that is over multiple sites throughout Western Australia. And I also still do counselling within that as well. [00:01:14] Speaker A: What sort of counseling do you do? [00:01:16] Speaker B: I do individual counselling, couples counselling, a little bit of family counseling, everything from children all the way through to pensioners and age people. [00:01:28] Speaker A: Really? [00:01:29] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:01:30] Speaker A: What, Tim, what? Is there more reason for people to see counsellors today than there was 15, 20 years ago? [00:01:43] Speaker B: Wow. Okay, so that's a huge question. Look, I think the need. How would you say it? The needs change, you know, obviously, with world events and different things happening in society on one level, but on another level, human needs have never changed. Human needs are human needs. So I guess the need for counseling and when we look at that, you know, the need to be listened to, the need to be able to process things, the need for support when you're going through difficult seasons in life, that. That need has always been there. [00:02:23] Speaker A: Yeah. I have a couple of questions. So if people go and see you, what is the. What is the thing you try to do first off? [00:02:37] Speaker B: Yep. [00:02:38] Speaker A: Okay. [00:02:39] Speaker B: So I think the fundamental outstanding need that. That is. That is common to all of us in essence. And really, when we look at research and what works in and through counseling, what is the healing element of it? Bottom line, it's relationship. So it's all about connection. So the first thing that I do and that generally counsellors should do is build a safe rapport with a client. A place where that person who is coming in and generally they're nervous, obviously you're speaking to someone you've never met before and, you know, there's an element of vulnerability. People you know, it's me coming in today. I've never done a radio interview before and there's a, there's a few nerves there. I'm like, wow, what's this going to be like? So people are coming in with that stuff and you know that. So naturally you want to help them to feel comfortable, build trust and a sense of safety around connection. [00:04:00] Speaker A: Is that hard? [00:04:06] Speaker B: I don't find it difficult as such, I think for different people. I guess we get, as I said, we get a range of different people that come in for counselling and that is, you know, everyone. You know, you've got people who may be coming in who are in the midst of a massive crisis, they might have lost someone or they, they're going through a divorce or tackling, you know, a very real emotional or mental challenge. But we also get people who come in who I guess more proactively or they're looking for strategies or help around self care or learning skills around leadership or really wanting to learn stuff, you know, around their given trade or what they do. So we get a lot of different people. [00:05:07] Speaker A: So [00:05:10] Speaker B: naturally I think some folks, it is more challenging to build that rapport and trust. And naturally many of us have been let down or we may have trust issues or have been betrayed or there's areas where we're like, I need to really test this person before I trust them. And yeah, that's more challenging. [00:05:36] Speaker A: That's very interesting, isn't it? I mean, on a number of different levels. Nick, like I'm just. When you mentioned that about levels of trust. Yeah. And I was, while I retired and I had a, a very, very, very small nest egg and somebody recommended a financial advisor to me and I must have done so many self tests in my head by asking questions because of that trust factor. [00:06:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:13] Speaker A: And once I was convinced that, yes, this bloke is okay. Yeah. Then it was fine. But that was nothing, you know, that was Douglas, financial advisor, Counselor. It was a similar sort of feeling. So when you say you're a little bit apprehensive about coming here. I know what you mean, but. And people think, oh, you know, it must be a big thing going on your life and this at the other. But something can be so Mimsicule. [00:06:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:42] Speaker A: And it sparks that, doesn't it? [00:06:44] Speaker B: It does, it does. You know. [00:06:46] Speaker A: So do you have your. It was funny because I have a. Just digressing a little bit. I have a. He's basically, he's very big into men's mental health. [00:06:58] Speaker B: Okay. [00:06:59] Speaker A: And he has a website and he has men. And it's quite interesting how he says men have really difficulty in being vulnerable. That's one of the things. But he. He said, the thing that he finds is he said, look, I'm a counselor, but if somebody comes to see me, we might not hit it off. [00:07:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:22] Speaker A: As a counselor, he said, so your counselor is you probably. They're all. A lot of them are good, but you just might not have that connection. Yeah. [00:07:32] Speaker B: And. And that's super, super important. And I'll often say to, you know, to my clients, I'll often say, look, I could be the best counselor in the world, but if. If we don't have a connection. [00:07:44] Speaker A: Yes. [00:07:45] Speaker B: And, you know, I might remind you of. Of that teacher you had in year seven who, you know, embarrassed you in front of the whole class, and that might, you know, you might be like, oh, I don't like this guy, or whatever, anything. So because counseling is such a personal, vulnerable space, you really want to like the person you're talking to. [00:08:07] Speaker A: You do, don't you? You do, you know, and how. Sort of I'm going from chopping. Just asking question. So how. How hard is it for. For you not to get involved? How does Nick. He goes and sees her, and you have the connection and you get on quite well. This person. [00:08:28] Speaker B: Yep, yep. [00:08:28] Speaker A: How do you separate that from when that person leaves the office? [00:08:33] Speaker B: Sure. Yep. Yep. Boundaries. [00:08:36] Speaker A: Yeah, Boundaries. How do you do that? Is that hard? [00:08:40] Speaker B: Look, I. I would say that it's different for different personalities. So. So I'm. I'm someone. And it's interesting. My wife and I were actually talking about this on the way here today. I. I am a. I guess what some people might call an empath. So I. I feel a lot. [00:08:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:59] Speaker B: Yeah. So. And. And that's just who I am. I'm. I'm probably naturally a bit sensitive in that space, so I feel things. And I would say there's an element of my life journey that has involved me learning how to manage that, both in my work and in my personal life. How to learn how to manage that sensitivity, how to manage that sense of feeling. So that's been a journey that's, in one sense, taken a long time to learn. So for me, I've been involved in people work for about 30 years. [00:09:38] Speaker A: Wow. [00:09:38] Speaker B: In various forms. So lots of different kinds of things, from counseling to lecturing, to pastoring and chaplaincy to project management. Lots of. Lots of different things over a long period of time. And in fact, early on in the piece, I. I was in a Particular season of my life, I was doing a number of people work jobs to pay the mortgage and I burnt out and. Yep. So I had to give up all those jobs and ended up going and getting a job with the local council. I had a background in horticulture, had a truck license so I could fall back on that. And I went and worked for the local council for a while and spent six months recovering from that. So long story short, I've learnt the hard way on how to set boundaries and how to on one level be present with people in the sessions. [00:10:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:56] Speaker B: And to give them everything I have in a sense. But to be able to, when the session ends, be able to end it there and leave it there. [00:11:08] Speaker A: How do you do that? Because I'm assuming and you know, I'm assuming you're still very empathetic. Empathetic person. [00:11:16] Speaker B: Yep, I try to be. [00:11:19] Speaker A: So how do you, how do you. What's this? Sounds harsh, but it's not meant to sound harsh. How do you cut off empathy when you're an empathetic person? [00:11:29] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So I, I think like the way that I look at it in a sense is that we have a head and a heart. [00:11:39] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:11:40] Speaker B: And we need both. And so empathy in my mind is a, is a, is a heart, it's a heart thing, whereas the head, you need wisdom. And so there's a point where you can make a decision almost. I guess what initially would have been a conscious act of my will but now is more of a subconscious thing where I finish the session and I finish the session and I may write some notes, I might send some resources to a client. If it's a, you know, if it's challenging, it may come up confidentially in a supervision session that I, that I have, but it's generally left there and that, that has become an act of my will. [00:12:36] Speaker A: Right. [00:12:37] Speaker B: A volition or a choice. And I guess the other side of that is that I, I'm, I actively practice self care, so I'm a surfer. So I sort of been my, my recreation of choice since I was about 12. And I do that as much as I can, you know, exercise and kind of. Yeah. [00:13:07] Speaker A: So it's, it's, it's a, it's an interesting thing, isn't it? Like I, not that I, not that I'm a, a, a follower as such of any religion, Nick, but. And I've probably said this before on Airway, I was working with a, a woman, oh what, 30 years ago now, I think, and she was always calm and you know, quite. You know, And I said to her, anyway. And she said, oh, yes, you know, I read Buddhist books. And she said, you look like one. I know. I don't want to be involved. Anyway, cut a long story short, as you would say, I eventually will just. Just give me one. But I don't want anybody knock on my door or anything like that. And so I've read them quite a few of them since, and one of the things which they profess is logic and emotion, which is perhaps, okay, head and heart, and you've got to have both. [00:14:13] Speaker B: That's right. [00:14:14] Speaker A: And you can't have too much logic because then you lose a heart. But if you have too much emotion, then the logic goes out the window. I'm not saying it's true, but I thought it was quite interesting when you said the same sort of thing. You've got your head and your heart. [00:14:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:30] Speaker A: And when you're very much a giving person and you see it all the time. I see it all the time. And it sort of upsets you. And I see very empathetic, very kind people who would give you the shirt off their back. [00:14:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:47] Speaker A: And I go, they. They've given everything away and they want nothing. And I don't, you know, I said, that shouldn't happen to that person. But, you know, it's a sad thing like that. [00:15:00] Speaker B: It's. Yeah, it's really interesting. I think a real key for me for. For a long, long time. And I really first engaged with this when I was probably about 21, and that was the. The concept of boundaries. And that has been a lifelong journey, a lifelong learning journey and education for me, the. The learning about boundaries and understanding them and applying them. And I guess, you know, if I. If you were to ask me what. What's the definition of a boundary? [00:15:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:44] Speaker B: I would say it's a property line, not unlike the fence in your home, you know, and in a human aspect, that is where I begin and where I end, what my responsibility is and what it isn't, you know, what I can control and what I can't. And, you know, it's interesting, the research around boundaries is that we discover that the most compassionate people who are wandering around in the world today are actually the most boundary people. [00:16:22] Speaker A: Are they really? [00:16:23] Speaker B: They are. [00:16:26] Speaker A: How do you mean that? [00:16:27] Speaker B: Yep. So boundaries, in a sense, and to quote someone who has done a lot of boundaries research and someone who's fairly well known in the world of people work is Bren A. Brown, and she would say that boundaries are about what's okay and what's not okay and what we would say with that. And the reason why the most boundary people are the most compassionate people is that boundary people are the least resentful. See, if I tolerate things that I'm not okay with and I say yes to things that perhaps I should be saying no to and are not setting enough limits in my life and extending myself, and in essence, even being a bleeding heart beyond my capacity, eventually I'll either become burnt out or. Or at the very least resentful and angry about that. [00:17:34] Speaker A: That's interesting. So if I paraphrase this, if that's the word, please. So if you were to set boundaries, you end up being more empathetic, is that. [00:17:46] Speaker B: That's correct. It actually looks after your heart. So if we come back to what I was saying before about empathy and compassion, in a sense being a heart thing, boundaries help you look after your heart. To quote the old proverb, guard your heart with all diligence because out of it flow the issues of life. It's an active or proactive practice of looking after your heart. I will also say to some of my clients, at times, the most important thing I can do as a counselor is actually look after my heart. [00:18:27] Speaker A: Wow, that's really quite. It's quite enlightening. Quite. Quite deep. You know, and one of the advantages of me being this chair is that I interview so many people and the greater percentage of people go away. And I've learned something which I really love and I'd never thought of it like that. And now I walk away thinking I've learned. So sonic is there in these days, it's really so many options. We can go in, you know, like I said many, many years ago, we could connect. And back in my day, you were lucky if you had a phone ring up, connect. [00:19:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:11] Speaker A: So the connections were very sparse. Now we've got emails, we've got SMS's, we've got mobile phones with us all the time, so we can connect a lot better. But I find that we connect less. [00:19:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:19:27] Speaker A: Do you? [00:19:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's an interesting one. I think, you know, what we're dealing with, at least in the Western world, is a pandemic of loneliness. [00:19:38] Speaker A: Yes. [00:19:41] Speaker B: And look, there's a lot of. There's a lot of reasons for that. You know, I mean, I think as, as human beings, we are fundamentally tribal. So we, we are relational. [00:19:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:52] Speaker B: We exist in relationship, we live and, and in a sense move and have our being in connection and relationship and, and I mean, even research into that. That the people who live the longest, the people who have the best heart health, the people who have the best mental health, the people who have the strongest immune systems, all of this are people who are deeply connected and relationally healthy. And so, you know, our mental health is directly proportional to our relational health when it comes to. Sorry, I've just done a huge, big diversion there. [00:20:31] Speaker A: No, that's okay. That's great. Honestly, I think it's great. I do think it's great. [00:20:36] Speaker B: I guess what we find with the modern world today, with various forms of multimedia and communication, is that there's a lot of options, as you say, and there's lots of different kinds of communication modes, but there's not necessarily the depth. And so social media and Facebook and Instagram, these kinds of things are a case in point. If you've, you know, you. You might be interacting with people on. On Facebook, for instance, and you're getting likes and things, and. And that will give you a dopamine hit. It'll give you a little dopamine hit. And another one, and another one and another one. But it's not necessarily really meeting that deeper need that we have as human beings to be known and loved and to be able to connect in meaningful ways that I think can really only happen face to face. [00:21:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Isn't it? Again, it's a question because I. Sometimes you read things and, you know, they sink in your mind and you say. But I. Because is it true that. That most you. I don't really know. Most of our communication is done through body language. And if you're on Instagram or Facebook, there's no body language. Isn't it. So I'm talking to you here, and there's a. You know, I've never met me before, and. Yeah, but there's. You get the sense that we. You're connecting with somebody. [00:22:20] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:22:21] Speaker A: On. [00:22:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:22:23] Speaker A: You know, rather than even on a phone. You don't get that. I could. You could be phoning in and I could be asked the same questions. But it's a reaction, isn't it? [00:22:31] Speaker B: Yes. Yes. So, I mean, we're mirroring each other to some degree here. There's mirror neurons going on in the brain where. Where we're. We're sort of moving and. And there's. There's connection happening on that bodily level. [00:22:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:44] Speaker B: And. And it's. And look, I mean, a lot of what we do at Breathe and what I would say most therapists are doing now is offering online therapy, so we're doing counseling Both individuals and couples, you know, via teams or, you know, through video, you know, telehealth appointments. And they're surprisingly effective. Oh, really? Yeah. I mean, when, I mean, this really took off in a big way or took a quite a boost during COVID when it was locked down. Yeah, but. And it's, it's, it's, it's grown over the years, obviously, as technology has developed. But I, I was initially quite a cynic in that space. I was like, this can't be, you know, this, this can't work too well. But it actually has. And it's been, it's been good. But part of that is because you can see each other and you are moving and there is. Yeah. Now, on a personal level, I prefer face to face. Yeah, I prefer that. But that's not everyone's cup of tea. That's not everybody else's preference. Some people, you know, for various reasons, prefer to, to do an online. [00:24:05] Speaker A: I don't think they would feel. My guess would be they wouldn't feel threatened. Like, if they go in to see you, they, they've never met you before. They don't know you walk into the office, oh, what's it going to be like? Whereas you, can you master your own destiny if you're doing a phone call [00:24:20] Speaker B: or, you know, I mean, they, they can be sitting there in the comfort of their own home with trackies and ugg boots on, cuddling their cat. [00:24:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:28] Speaker B: Drinking a cup of tea in their familiar space. But also, there's people who live remotely. There's people who, who, you know, because of disability or whatever, you know, restricted in their, in their geographical movements. So. Yeah, so that, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a preferable option for many people. Yeah. [00:24:52] Speaker A: What do you see? You've been doing counseling for, For a number of years. [00:24:58] Speaker B: A long time. [00:24:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Either. What. Seems you mentioned loneliness before, but what would you say at the moment is the, the one that is the most prevalent with that need counseling, if there is one? [00:25:18] Speaker B: Okay, that's actually a really difficult question. I think it's multifaceted. Yeah, I, I think underlying many, many of these things is, is loneliness. I would say that trauma is a, Is a huge one. I mean, many, many, many people would say that trauma is the, the greatest mental health issue in the Western world. And in more recent years, there's been a lot more research done into that. There's been the development of a lot of different therapy models and approaches that have been specifically about targeting trauma. So that's a big one. Huge. I think relationship breakdowns, whether that's, you know, the big D, the divorce or, you know, just break down in friendships or family relationships, estrangement of children and things like that. And then obviously you're looking at depression and anxiety and grief, those kinds of things. And then you've got addictions. You've got, you know, in some areas, you know, the prevalence of, you know, there's. There's meth addiction, there's. There's recreational drug addiction, there's gambling addictions, there's. There's pornography addiction, which is a huge one. [00:26:52] Speaker A: It's just, you know, it's. It's like, you know, you come in here, Nick, and it's like you open up and I really do. It's so interesting, you know, like. And there's so many subjects that we can. [00:27:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:06] Speaker A: Is there a. I often sort of. And I've probably got the wrong metaphor, if that's the right word. Probably is the wrong word. But you see, in a lot of countries, maybe it's just what I've seen that people seem happy with nothing and they don't seem to. When they need counseling or they don't have counseling. [00:27:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:36] Speaker A: But they seem happy. [00:27:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:39] Speaker A: I find it strange sometimes that businesses, like what you do is an increasing thing. Things. Wrong word. In the Western world. Is there some correlation there or. [00:27:53] Speaker B: Well, you're about to open up a massive can of worms. Look, I mean, we. We could talk about, I guess, in the Western world. Yeah. You know, there has been a, you know, the movement toward the. The nuclear family. So there's not as much family interaction with extended families and. And whatnot. So you. You have situations now where, say, many of the aged are either living alone or. [00:28:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:23] Speaker B: You know, that they're. Which wouldn't have happened in previous generations to such a degree. There's been a movement away from living in closer proximity. And I guess, you know, as we go further back, you're dealing with, you know, back in earlier generations, you had village life, you had people living and, you know, interacting more socially. And many of the. I guess many of the needs that now counselors and psychologists are meeting, perhaps back in the day, would have been needs of the local pastor or the local. Or your grandfather or your nonna or your grand. That kind of thing would have been more a part. Integrated into that community. And we've, you know, there has been a drifting away from that and there is more social isolation, I would say, in today's Western world. Which brings me to the next Point. We've had the privilege, over the last. How long now? The last 11 years, we've had the privilege of being able to work, do work in Myanmar, which was previously Burma in Asia. I first visited Myanmar in, I think it was 2014. And you know, this is in many ways a developing country. And so we've, we've been involved in working with an orphanage over there and have, you know, traveled back and forth and supported people over there. Was over the last year running a trauma conference. And basically, long story short is that the happiest people that I've met have been in Myanmar. Now, if you think about it, Myanmar is known as the most violent country in the world, has the longest running civil war in world history, has had genocides, natural disasters, you know, earthquakes, just trauma upon trauma upon trauma upon generational trauma has happened in that country. But yet there's a social cohesion within communities in Myanmar that is closer than what we have. And so I have memories of first going to Myanmar and spending a week in an orphanage and, you know, being amongst children, teenagers, widows and volunteers in this space who have come out personally come out of trauma, but experiencing community and care within the, you know, I guess the, the framework of this orphanage. And there is a joy there despite. And part of that is, I would say, about their faith, but a huge part of it is simply genuine connection. [00:32:25] Speaker A: And that cut because, okay, Myanmar, which was. I didn't even know it was formerly Burma. Yeah. Mind you, I did work with a Burmese lady again. [00:32:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:36] Speaker A: I don't know how long it's been. Myanmar. [00:32:37] Speaker B: Myanmar, yep. So I gosh, I couldn't give you an exact date, but I believe since the 80s, I could be wrong with that. [00:32:50] Speaker A: But which would tie in with a lady who I work with and she said, you know, I come from Burma. [00:32:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:55] Speaker A: You know, but she was very funny enough I remember, I can picture in white, she was very pleasant. And, you know, I love. But on, you know, it's interesting that, you know, it must be. You must have a lot of knowledge there about human reactions. So if I was to meet. I don't know how old you are, but it doesn't meet somebody your age who have been born and bred in Wa. Yep. And yet I would think, and this is not denigrating anybody from Wa or anybody from Australia or England, but I dare say that I think we are very insulated. [00:33:43] Speaker B: Oh, for sure. You know, we don't know how lucky [00:33:46] Speaker A: we are, you know, and that's the thing that I find, I think doesn't matter if it's a country versus another country. Like all those people from, you know, those people from Tasmania, they've all got two heads. They're hopeless, they're stupid, they're behind the times. And I think, you know, that's, and I feel, I say, oh, you ever gone to Tasmania and meeting Tasmanian people? Oh no. But yeah, I read in the press that they haven't got a television and I think, wow, that's so insular. And so, yeah, yeah. You know, I just think the mind's out there, you know, and yeah, I can ask. See, when I finish this show with you, Nick, I'm going to read up about Myanmar. Yeah. And the people there. [00:34:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:31] Speaker A: Because I mean it's interesting. Is it really fascinating? Yeah, yeah. Especially after telling me all the trauma they've been through. [00:34:39] Speaker B: How many people live in what's the population? I couldn't even tell you. [00:34:44] Speaker A: Oh really? Okay, yeah, yeah. [00:34:46] Speaker B: I mean we Google it, but yeah, [00:34:48] Speaker A: no, no, no, I could tell you [00:34:50] Speaker B: but you know, look, I mean we've, I could tell you a little bit about the history but, but really, you know, the, the Myanmar is made up of, of 130 odd ethnic groups. [00:35:05] Speaker A: Oh really? [00:35:07] Speaker B: So seriously? Yeah, so even from the very outset the, the country in a sense was, was, was birthed in war. So it's a, and it's, you're talking thousands of years ago, so it's, it's, yeah, so it's a long, a long history of, of, of conflict and we, I, I, I, look, I love going there and in fact we, I, I've, I've built a connection with a, with the, the pastor who looks after the orphanage that we connect with. He's actually going to be over here next week, you know, over that time and he, he's been able to introduce us to various people throughout Myanmar and take us to different parts. We were there a number of years ago and we were able to go to a part of Myanmar where myself and my mate who came with me from here, we were the first white people that had been there in 100 years to this particular area. And you know, it was just such a privilege to interact with these people and, and to be welcomed and to share and, and you know, just, and fascinating it Utterly fascinating. [00:36:33] Speaker A: What was the thing that hit you most when you said you're the first person that had been there for 100 years? What hit you the most? [00:36:41] Speaker B: Being in that particular region. [00:36:43] Speaker A: What? [00:36:44] Speaker B: Is that what you mean? Yeah, okay. I think the, how do I say it? There's so many things. But I think the standout is the people. The Burmese people that I have interacted with largely are incredibly gentle people. And, you know, when you go there, there is an appreciation. And I think you find this with many developing countries, if you visit them, is that there's an appreciation. People are grateful that you've decided to visit them, and hence there's an openness. And I think, you know, whether you're talking about appreciation and gratitude in a marriage or an appreciation and gratitude in people in Myanmar, gratitude and appreciation is just a beautiful foundation for relationship. So you go there and people are, you know, kind and, and appreciative and like, you know, thanks for coming and, and there's an open heart. It's just a, it's just great. [00:38:00] Speaker A: It almost seems like to me, from listening to this, like, like what he should be. [00:38:05] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You know, and I think, you know, sometimes I say to people, appreciation is a great detox. [00:38:15] Speaker A: Yes, yes. [00:38:17] Speaker B: It keeps disrespect and contempt at bay. [00:38:21] Speaker A: And I think again, generalizations are so easy. But I, I think, and I, you know, I think we live in a. An amazing place in wa. Incredible. [00:38:38] Speaker B: Incredible. [00:38:38] Speaker A: And I think I often say to my friends, my wife, that people don't appreciate. I won't say anything here, but, you know, when are they going to put an extra lane on the freeway? [00:38:55] Speaker B: Like. [00:38:55] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, but you've got a freeway. [00:38:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:58] Speaker A: And it might take a five. But isn't it nice that you've got them? Is it nice you got the train? You know, and it's almost. Well, should have them. But I think. Can't you appreciate what you got? [00:39:08] Speaker B: Sure, yeah. [00:39:09] Speaker A: And I think it sort of is always this thing of like even something basic as running water. [00:39:17] Speaker B: Yep, yep. [00:39:19] Speaker A: And electricity. [00:39:20] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:39:21] Speaker A: And people don't appreciate them. [00:39:25] Speaker B: And look, you know, I think we all, we all fall into that trap. I mean, when you were saying that, I was thinking, God, I was only complaining about the, the freeway last week about. Yeah, I know, you know, it's there, but look, I think it's interesting. I, I'm. My parents are expats from the uk and I was, I was born in the uk. I was born in Essex. I'm an Essex man. [00:39:52] Speaker A: Gavin Stacy. [00:39:53] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, Gavin and Stacy. Yep. And. Yeah, but, but was six months old when I made the executive decision to leave the place. And, you know, but, but I say that my folks left the UK in their early twenties and went and worked in, in deepest, darkest Africa as teachers. [00:40:13] Speaker A: Wow. [00:40:14] Speaker B: You know, and they, they were Browned off with the weather and left and were like. And. And. And in fact, when they went back, my mother cried. She was like, I can't come back to this. This weather. I can't cope with this. And. And then they moved to Australia. And. And so, in a sense, I was. I was born and grew up with, I guess, that. The appreciation that my parents had of Australia. [00:40:38] Speaker A: Yes. [00:40:40] Speaker B: And I think, look, I. I love traveling. I love. I love the uk I love going, you know, I love going to different places, but, you know, I don't think there's anywhere else in the world that's better than here. And I remember. I remember reading Tim Winton, you know, one of his audio podcasts, biographies. And, you know, he'd spent a number of years living in Ireland and in Paris and different places in Europe. And I remember him saying, you know, there was this lingering frustration or this feeling inside of him that he couldn't shake, but he couldn't quite identify when he was living there. And then when he came back to wa, it dawned on him, I think this is the story. And he realized that it was. You can't go anywhere in Europe where you can't see the hand of man. You can't see where man has done something to the land. But you come to WA and you don't have to go far to find some bush, some wilderness, some places where it's natural. And, you know, I mean, we, you know, me and my mates, we, you know, when we go surfing, we head down south or we go up north or wherever, and it's you. You're in that nature, you're in that place, and I just couldn't live without that. [00:42:13] Speaker A: It's a very interesting thing, isn't it? Like, you know, everybody has their. And I'm like, I think, you know, I always try and reflect on. On basically how lucky I am, you know, when, you know, you can go and grab a coffee and you can go down a Rockingham foreshore and the beaches are beautiful and the thing. And you look in a car park, depending where you go, and there may be half a dozen cars here. [00:42:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:41] Speaker A: And I think, could you imagine, like, even you go to a. You know, if you go to a restaurant on the foreshore, or you can just have a cup of coffee there, whatever, have a cup of coffee, overlook there. And I think if you were somewhere else in the world, like, I'm assuming France or whatever. Whatever. Yeah. You wouldn't even. They wouldn't even look at you and say, you don't belong Here, mate. [00:43:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:03] Speaker A: And I just don't think people realize it. How lucky we are. [00:43:06] Speaker B: Yes. [00:43:07] Speaker A: To have all that and be able to go there. [00:43:09] Speaker B: Yes. Yes. [00:43:10] Speaker A: It's amazing. [00:43:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:13] Speaker A: Question. [00:43:13] Speaker B: Yep. [00:43:14] Speaker A: How long you here for? About another 10 or so minutes. And happy? Yeah. You're happy to. [00:43:20] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It's. [00:43:21] Speaker A: Happy to chat still. [00:43:22] Speaker B: Yeah, it's my day off. Let's. Let's go with it. [00:43:25] Speaker A: So what percentage. You know when I speak to the, The. The David who comes here from men's mental health. Yeah. He. He obviously talks a lot about men's mental health, which is good because it doesn't. I don't think he gets the [00:43:45] Speaker B: ex. [00:43:46] Speaker A: Acceptance. Wrong word. The importance. [00:43:49] Speaker B: Okay. [00:43:50] Speaker A: As compared to a lot of other issues. [00:43:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:53] Speaker A: Do you find. What sort of. Do you have a percentage, Nick, on. On women versus, not versus, against men. As regards numbers. [00:44:02] Speaker B: Okay. Against. Yeah. Attending, Attending council. I. Look, I. I'm not really good with stats and I don't have numbers, but I think, look, I think naturally speaking and probably cultural reasons as well, women overall, in my experience, tend to be more comfortable talking about feelings. You know, I mean, there are. There are people who would. Who would point back to early men and say, you know, men are out hunting and they're. They're walking side by side with their spears and they're hunting something and the women are out gathering and they're. The women are facing each other and they gathered around bushes and different things and they're probably out there bitching about their husbands and the. Just kidding. Not really. And I think, you know, I think overall men tend to be more comfortable talking about serious things and feelings and whatnot and just communicating in general side by side whilst doing something, you know, and whereas, you know, women are more apt to be able to sit around having a cup of coffee and talking about their feelings and hence that. That reflects more, I think, in the counseling space. Look, we get a lot of blokes coming in. A lot of men. I think Overall maybe it's 60, 40. [00:45:37] Speaker A: Oh, it's not bad though, really, in this stage. Yeah. [00:45:40] Speaker B: Yeah. And look, with the couples space, sometimes it's. It's women dragging their husbands in, sometimes it's husbands dragging their wives in. Wow. But I think, look, often men are better at compartmentalizing in a sense. You know, there's an issue going on. We'll just put that in the back room and not talk about it and. And go fishing. Whereas women typically find it more difficult to put stuff in the back room, you know, that they more often than not. They would rather talk about it. And so, yeah, that lends itself to, you know, women expressing that in the, in the counseling room. [00:46:33] Speaker A: It's a, it's a fascinating, you know, like, it's good. Just diverse. Diverse buying. When I. And it's funny what you say, Nick, when I have the man that David, who comes from men's mental health, he said, he mirrored what you said. He said you won't get two men. A generalization, of course. You won't get two blokes going out for coffee. Yeah. Face to face. Yeah. [00:46:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:58] Speaker A: He said if men want to talk about what men want to talk about. [00:47:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:03] Speaker A: They've got to be ripping an engine apart. [00:47:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:07] Speaker A: Side by side. [00:47:08] Speaker B: That's it. [00:47:08] Speaker A: That's how you're going to get them to talk. [00:47:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:10] Speaker A: You know, and I, I just, you know. And you said sort of similar sort of thing. Yeah, that. That's the way it works. [00:47:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:17] Speaker A: So do you have a. I mean, Nick's coming here and I, I just heard a word what he does. So do you have like a, a website, a Facebook address or a business thing like that, Nick? [00:47:30] Speaker B: Yep, all of those. Yep. So we have a website, you know, breathecounselingperth.com. [00:47:36] Speaker A: how is that spelled? [00:47:38] Speaker B: Breathe. As in B R E A T H E Breathe or Breathe. Breathe counseling. And you can get there either through breathecounselingperth.com or breathecounseling.com we are, we. We're on Facebook, we're on Instagram, all of those various platforms. And yeah, it's, it's fairly user friendly. You know, most of our appointments are booked straight off the website, so people are able to go on there, see the different counselors in the different locations and, you know, Book Perth or Book West Perth or Book Albany or Book. [00:48:17] Speaker A: How many. How many? Sort of different. [00:48:19] Speaker B: Different places. [00:48:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:20] Speaker B: Yep. So we have Mindari, Joondalup, Wembley, West Perth, Perth, cbd, Midland, Mandurah, Rockingham and Albany. Wow. And online. [00:48:40] Speaker A: So how many, how many people do you have involved, Nick? [00:48:45] Speaker B: Again, I'm not good with stats. No, it's. There's, there's. There's about 27 of us all up. [00:48:51] Speaker A: Whoa. [00:48:53] Speaker B: And Joanna, my wife, also works with us and she's a breath work practitioner, so she does somatic breath work. So that's helping people to manage their nervous systems through breath work, which is amazing. [00:49:13] Speaker A: Okay. Can we breathe about that? Yeah. Breath. What is breath work? Yeah. [00:49:18] Speaker B: Yeah. So. So look, I guess in more recent years, you know, I was saying earlier there's been a lot of studies done and a lot of therapies developed around trauma. You know, some of these are emdr, so eye movement desensitization, reprocessing. [00:49:35] Speaker A: Yep, yep. [00:49:36] Speaker B: Mouthful. Internal family systems or ifs, schema therapy, cognitive behavior therapy. Many, many different forms of therapy. But there's a lot of these therapies will engage with practices that have been around for a long time, like mindfulness. And many of them integrate or incorporate in their approach approaches that directly work with the human nervous system. And breath work is one of those approaches. And so what we, in a sense, what we understand and what we're learning more and more through research and what have you is that many struggles that people have in life are more accurately described as physiological or to do with the nervous system or neurobiology, the, you know, the various workings of the organ of the brain, as opposed to simply saying, oh, you've got a mental health issue. Which in itself, which is an interesting one in itself because there are times when you might say to someone, well, this is actually a physiological issue. This is a nervous system issue, not a mental health issue. For some people who may have a sense of shame or stigma around mental health might be like, oh, wow, okay, tell me more. And so breath work, and as I said, along alongside other therapies, incorporates practices that helps a person learn how to regulate and manage their nervous system so that they can manage their emotions and manage their thoughts, including anxiety. [00:51:46] Speaker A: So that's what the breath part of it is. Yeah. Wow. [00:51:51] Speaker B: So very, very practical example. That's very, very basic. Obviously, breath work, somatic breath work goes, Goes a lot further with this. But a very basic example is the military will use, you know, what they call combat breathing, and they'll utilize combat breathing, or in psychology speak, we call it box breathing. And that is, you know, simply breathing in for four, five seconds deeply, holding your breath for four or five seconds, breathing out for four or five seconds, breathing in for four or five seconds, holding for four or five. So it's that, you know, box breathing. And that will help a person's nervous system to regulate. And. Yeah, so, I mean, look, there are times when I will practice breathing when I'm surfing, if it's bigger than I'm comfortable with and I'm getting a bit anxious, just sort of slow my breathing down. And what that does, I mean, if I can explain it really, really quickly, is when a person is calm and collected and, you know, all's good in the hood, they're generally breathing slowly and you Know, just naturally, they're just sort of breathing. And that breath sends a message up the person's vagus nerve, the biggest nerve in the autonomic nervous system. Sends a message up the vagus nerve to the brain, telling the brain that all is good. In the hood, all's okay. Yep. But if I'm in a stress response, if I'm in a place where I'm freaking out over, you know, either a big wave coming or a dog is about to bite me, or my husband or wife is angry and they're yelling at me, I'm gonna get dysregulated. My nervous system is gonna go, oh, we're in danger here. And so my breathing is gonna be quicker if I notice that, and go, ah. I can actually adjust my breathing. And generally. Yeah. And so, you know, oftentimes we talk about around conflict management with couples. We say, okay, if you reach a point where you are dysregulated, just let each other know. Just say, look, I'm. I need a minute here. We're in the middle of a blue. We're in the middle of a fight, which most of us know what that is. Give me a minute. In fact, give me 20 minutes. Let me go away. And you go away. Deep breathe. Physiologically self, soothe, slow it down. Which is telling your brain that you're safe, brings you back into a calmer place. Then you can come back into the conversation and be the kind of person that your partner wants to be in a relationship with. [00:54:52] Speaker A: It's been. The time's just flown, Nick. It's been an hour and I haven't played any music. And it's just been absolutely so for me, which sounds a bit selfish, but hopefully people out there, it's been as good for them as it was me. It's been fascinating. If you're ever around again, I would just love to chat to you again because I think we just scratched the surface. But thanks very much, Nick. I really mean bottom of my heart. It was just really great. So thank you very much for coming in. [00:55:29] Speaker B: Thanks, Nick. Yeah, I really appreciate it. [00:55:32] Speaker A: It's been great chatting and we'll do the right thing. We'll do the right thing. We'll play one of these songs.